Could someone who knows the procedure describe how someone gets to be canonised?
And perhaps standardise their nomenclature before we get too many more?
- Good idea, Malcolm. This is what I suggested to MichaelTinkler a couple of days ago:
- Regarding names: I'm personally inclined to naming pages with the saint's name, and location or other description to distinguish between eg Augustine of Hippo and Augustine of Canterbury. Problem is that other Wikipedians may have already made a link to Saint XXX - that's how I found Saint Columba, for instance. It shouldn't be a *huge* problem, though.
The current Wikipedia pages with Saint at the start probably should be changed to just their name (and location if necessary) - must watch out for the backlinks too.
Well, I'll probably be adding saints from time to time from the old encyclopedia, so I'll try to name them as you suggest -- Malcolm Farmer
I've removed Saint from those people in the list who had them before their name. I think the title of this page would imply that all the individuals listed are considered saints. 8-> If their canonicity is in doubt, this should be stated in the individual saint's biography. -- Claudine
Suggest we move the list of saints to a "Saints/Listing of saints" page and keep the "Saints" page itelf for definition, description.
Uhhh sorry to break up the party, but the eastern Orthodox and Ethiopian churches recognise a completely different list of saints than the Catholic Church and the Anglicans have their own take on the subject too, I believe. Are we fgoing to lump them all together here?
Anyone know if Butlers Lives of the Saints is out of copyright yet?
this is just aiming at listing wikipedia-relevant saints, I thought, not an exclusive list. The canonization process, will, of necessity, be western since the Orthodox don't really have much of a process. If you mean the TITLE Hosios, that's just language, and means Saint. Feel free to add any Orthodox or Ethiopian saints, and to revise any current listings. Don't remove sainthood from anyone just because another group doesn't 'recognize' it, just mention the fact in a freestanding paragraph or sentence. This is part of why I favor calling people by their names rather than by the title 'saint,' by the way. --MichaelTinkler
Using the table we can say which church recognises a particular saint and which doesn't.
looks good. Can we use "semi" besides yes and no in the mythical column? (for ones like Josaphat, who IIRC actually came from a garbled account of Buddha)
I have some nomenclature and category questions. First, for saints who are New Testament figures, such as the Apostles and Evangelists, would it be safe to assume they're in both the Catholic and Orthodox columns? I'm thinking yes.
Second, how should we handle saints with multiple apellations? For example, Eastern Orthodoxy refers to John the Baptist both by that title, and also as John the Forerunner. I think the author of the Gospel of John is called both John the Evangelist and John the Theologian. And then there's Mary, the Virgin Mary, the Holy Virgin Mary, Holy Mother of God and Queen of the Universe Mary, and on and on. A related problem comes with someone like Dionysius the Areopagite. He's remembered as a first-century saint in the Orthodox Church, and there are at least a couple different writings attributed to him. But many scholars think the works in question weren't written until the fourth or fifth century, and therefore refer to their author as Pseudo-Dionysius or Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite.
Is there any reason not to link the biblical saints to their respective entries that got started from the list of Bible characters, or to include the full tradition of these saints on their respecive pages? The only reason not to I can think of is that Protestants would typically accept the Biblical accounts of what these people said and did, but not necessarily the full tradition of how and when they died, or even what they did that's not recorded in Scripture. Maybe just specify which parts are biblical and which parts of the story are extrabiblical?
About the alphabetical order of the saints, this is not consistent. An inconsistent alphabetical ordering could result in saint a being added who is already in the table. I nearly did this with St Nicholas.
I suggest that they all be ordered, by Christian name (a.k.a First name), because most saints are known by that name. I've moved St Nicholas (or Myra) to Nicholas's place and find the Thomas More, could be moved to Thomas's place.
Also the table information of newly added saints may need to be checked by those in the know. Karl Palmen
I agree about the alphabetical ordering by first name; where these are the same, then we can go by the last name or attribute modifier ("of Mytown" or "the Great", etc.) This is about the only bit of information that every one of them has. I'll try to work on this as I can, but please don't wait for me. ;-) --Wesley
I've done this. Look at the cases of Thomas and Gregory. Karl Palmen
There are a lot of saints, here is a list gleaned from a web page. I'm sure I read that there are over three hundred (300) St Stephen's alone? Rjstott A
St. Adelaide St. Agatha St. Agnes St. Agnes of Montepulciano St. Aiden St. Albert Great St. Aloysius Gonzaga St. Alphonsus Liguori St. Alphonsus Rodriguez St. Ambrose Bl. Andre Bessette St. Andrew St. Andrew Dung-Lac and Companions St. Andrew Fournet St. Andrew Kim Taegon and St. Paul Chong Hasang St. Angela Merici Bl. Anne of Bartholomew Annunciation of Lord St. Anselm St. Anthony Claret St. Anthony Mary Zaccaria Bl. Anthony Neyrot St. Anthony of Egypt St. Anthony of Padua St. Antoninus St. Anysia St. Apollonia and Martyrs of Alexandria Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary St. Athanasius St. Augustine St. Augustine of Canterbury
St. Barbatus St. Barnabas St. Bartholomew St. Basil and Gregory Nazianzen St. Bathildis Venerable Bede Beheading of John Baptist St. Benedict St. Benedict Joseph Labre St. Berard and Companions St. Bernadette St. Bernard St. Bernardine of Siena St. Bertilla Bl. Bertrand St. Bibiana St. Blaise St. Bonaventure St. Boniface St. Boris and Gleb St. Botvid St. Bridget of Sweden St. Brigid of Ireland St. Bruno
St. Caesarius of Nazianzen St. Cajetan St. Callistus I St. Canute St. Casimir St. Catherine Laboure St. Catherine of Alexandria Bl. Catherine of Augustine St. Catherine of Ricci St. Catherine of Siena St. Cecilia St. Celestine V St. Chaeremon and Ischyrion Chair of Peter St. Charbel St. Charles Borromeo Bl. Charles Good St. Charles Lwanga and Companions Bl. Christina Christmas, Birthday of Jesus St. Clare St. Colette St. Columban Bl. Contardo Ferrini St. Cornelius and Cyprian St. Cosmas and Damian St. Cuthbert St. Cyril and Methodius St. Cyril of Alexandria St. Cyril of Jerusalem
Bl. Damien of Molokai St. David I of Scotland St. Denis and Companions St. Deogratias Bl. Didacus St. Dominic St. Dominic of Silos St. Dominic Savio
St. Eanswida St. Edmund St. Edmund Campion St. Edward Eleven Martyrs of Almeria, Spain St. Elizabeth Bichier St. Elizabeth of Hungary St. Elizabeth of Portugal St. Emily de Vialar St. Ephrem St. Eucherius Bl. Eugene de Mazenod Bl. Eugene III St. Eulogius of Spain St. Euphrasia St. Eusebius St. Evaristus
St. Fabian and Sebastian St. Faustinus and Jovita St. Felicity and Her Seven Sons St. Felix and Cyprian St. Felix II St. Fidelis of Sigmaringen St. Fina (Seraphina) First Martyrs of Church of Rome St. Flannan St. Flora of Beaulieu St. Foillan St. Frances of Rome St. Frances Xavier Cabrini Bl. Francis Anthony of Lucera St. Francis Caracciolo St. Francis de Sales St. Francis of Assisi St. Francis of Paola Bl. Francois de Montmorency Laval Bl. Frederic Janssoone St. Frederick
St. Gabriel of Our Lady of Sorrows St. Genevieve St. George St. Gerard of Brogne St. Germaine of Pibrac St. Gertrude St. Gildas St. Giles Bl. Giles Mary St. Godfrey Bl. Gregory Barbarigo St. Gregory Great St. Gregory VII
St. Henry II Bl. Henry of Treviso St. Hilarion St. Hilary of Poitiers The Holy Innocents St. Hugh of Grenoble
St. Ignatius of Antioch St. Ignatius of Laconi St. Irenaeus St. Isaac Jogues, John de Brebeuf St. Isidore Farmer St. Isidore of Seville
Bl. James Duckett St. James Greater St. James Intercisus St. Jane Frances de Chantal St. Jane Valois St. Januarius St. Jerome St. Jerome Emiliani St. Joachim and Anne Bl. Joan Delanoune St. Joan of Arc Bl. Joan of Toulouse St. John Almsgiver St. John Apostle St. John Baptist de la Salle St. John Baptist Rossi St. John Berchmans St. John Bosco St. John Capistrano St. John Chrysostom St. John Climacus St. John Damascene Bl. John Duckett and Ralph Corby St. John DuLau and September Martyrs St. John Eudes St. John Fisher St. John Francis Regis St. John Gaulbert St. John I St. John Joseph of Cross St. John Kanty St. John Leonardi St. John Neumann St. John of Cross St. John of Egypt St. John of God Bl. John of Rieti St. John of Sahagun St. John Roberts St. John Vianney St. Jonas and Barachisius St. Josaphat St. Joseph St. Joseph Barsabbas St. Joseph Cafasso St. Joseph Calasanz St. Joseph Cupertino St. Joseph Moscati St. Joseph Worker Bl. Juan Diego St. Judith of Prussia St. Julian and Basilissa St. Julie Billiart Bl. Junipero Serra St. Justin
Bl. Kateri Tekakwitha Bl. Katharine Drexel St. Kenneth
St. Lawrence Bl. Lawrence Humphrey and other Martyrs St. Lawrence Justinian St. Lawrence O'Toole St. Lawrence of Brindisi St. Lawrence Ruiz and Companions St. Leo Great St. Leo IV Bl. Lidwina St. Louis of France Bl. Louis of Thuringia St. Lucy St. Ludger St. Luke
St. Macrina St. Macrina St. Marcellinus and Peter St. Margaret Mary St. Margaret of Scotland Bl. Margaret Pole St. Marguerite Bourgeoys St. Marguerite D'Youville St. Maria Goretti Bl. Marie Rose Durocher Bl. Marie-Leonie Paradis St. Mark Evangelist St. Martha St. Martin de Porres St. Martin I St. Martin of Tours The Martyrs of Orange The Martyrs of Vietnam and Companions St. Mary Magdalen de Pazzi St. Mary Magdalene Bl. Mary of Incarnation Mary, Mother of God Mary, Our Queen St. Matilda St. Matthew St. Matthias St. Maximilian Kolbe St. Maximinius St. Meletius St. Methodius I St. Michael, Gabriel, Raphael Bl. Michelina Bl. Miguel Augustin Pro St. Monica St. Montanus, Lucius and Companions
St. Narcissus St. Nereus, Achilleus and Pancras St. Nersus St. Nicholas Bl. Nicholas Albergati St. Nicholas of Tolentino St. Nino St. Norbert Bl. Notker
St. Olympias St. Onesimus St. Otto Our Lady of Guadalupe Our Lady of Holy Rosary Our Lady of Lourdes Our Lady of Mount Carmel Our Lady of Sorrows
St. Pacificus St. Pammachius St. Pantaleon St. Paschal Baylon St. Paul Chong Hasang St. Paul Hermit St. Paul Miki and Companions St. Paul of Cross St. Paulinus of Nola St. Pelagius St. Perpetua and Felicity St. Peter and Paul St. Peter Canisius St. Peter Chanel St. Peter Chrysologus St. Peter Claver St. Peter Damian St. Peter Julian Eymard St. Philip and James St. Philip Neri St. Pius V St. Pius X St. Polycarp St. Pontian and Hippolytus St. Porcarius and Companions St. Porphyry
St. Radbertus St. Raymond of Penyafort Bl. Richard Gwyn St. Richard of Chichester St. Rita of Cascia St. Robert Bellarmine Bl. Roger Dickenson, Ralph Milner, St. Romanus and Lupicinus St. Romuald St. Rose of Lima St. Rose of Viterbo St. Rose Philippine Duchesne Bl. Rose Venerini
St. Sabas St. Scholastica St. Serapion St. Sergius Seven Founders of the Servite Order St. Simeon St. Simon and Jude St. Simplicius St. Sixtus II and Companions St. Soter and Caius St. Stanislaus St. Stephen St. Stephen Harding St. Stephen of Hungary St. Sylvester I
St. Teresa of Avila St. Thecla St. Theodore Tiro St. Theodosius St. Theophane Venard St. Theresa of Child Jesus St. Thomas St. St. Thomas Becket St. Thomas of Villanova St. Thorfinn St. Timothy and Titus Bl. Timothy Giaccardo Bl. Torello St. Turibius of Mongrovejo St. Tutilo
St. Ubald Bl. Urban V
St. Vincent de Paul St. Vincent Ferrer St. Vincent of Saragossa
St. Waldetrudis St. William St. William of Monte Vergine St. William of York St. Willibrord
St. Zachary St. Zita
-- I've trimmed this list by removing other festivals that got included somehow, and a couple that we have entries on. Calistus I may be pope Calixtus I, I think. Some of thse are Bl. rather than St., which I suppose means they're not fully canonized as yet? -- Malcolm Farmer
In the Roman Catholic tradition, I think that "Blessed" means they've gone through Beatification, but are still one step away from being fully canonized saints. But I could be wrong. The above list still has a few entries that duplicate what we already have. It also includes some groups, like the "Holy Innocents" and "St. Apollonia and Martyrs of Alexandria". I wouldn't disput their sainthood, I'm just not sure whether we need to handle those entries any differently. Would "Holy Innocents" be alphabetized under the "H" or "I"? Also, aren't all the "Our Lady... " entries just different titles for the Virgin Mary? I would rather have just one entry per saint, and have that saint's page list all the different names and titles by which they're known. There could even be redirect pages from the other titles.
On an unrelated note, what the heck does the "mythological" column mean?? What's the criteria for checking it?? Given the context and without any definition, it almost suggests a "mythological" branch of Christianity with its own set of saints. --Wesley
trim & reorganise however you see fit: Be bold in updating pages!
On the "mythical" aspect, there's a large grey area here. St George was a real person, but the dragon story is mythical: St. Christopher never existed, Josaphat was a holy man in another religion, Uncumber and Wilgefortis were completely mythical, IIRC; and though there may have been a St. Ursula, the ten thousand virgin martyrs associated with her are mythical (some authors attributing them to a misreading of an abbreviation) So a "mythical" column would seem to be in order, even if the criteria are for inclusion are vague. --Malcolm Farmer
- Wesley, I think it just means that they are people whose sainthood seems to be linked only tradition, but for whom there is no concrete proof. JHK
- No proof that they existed, no proof that they are recognized as saints, or no proof that they actually did everything in the stories about them? This seems to be a somewhat arbitrary standard that can't quite be considered NPOV. The one that really brought up the question in my mind was Michael and the other prominent angels, who I believe are recognized as saints in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions. Most of them are mentioned in the Bible, all of them are believed to have done great things on behalf of us humans, but there would be understandable difficulty in trying to establish their existence independently of Scripture. That doesn't make them any less real to the traditions that honor them as saints. For humans whose existence may be in doubt, and simple checkmark may not do justice to the surrounding debate. Perhaps a general disclaimer at the top saying that not every person may be independently confirmed, with details of any doubts on the individual saint's page? --Wesley
The mythical column was my idea. When I made the table, I specifically added the column to record saints who have been officially declared mythical by some church which formerly recognised them as real. That is an objectively verifiable criterion and so perfectly NPOV. Using it, St Michael does not fall into the mythical category since he is still deemed real by all churches which recognise him. However St Christopher does fall into the mythical category since he is/was a Catholic saint who is mythical according to the Catholic Church. Therefore he should have an entry in the Catholic column and in the mythical column. Perhaps there are saints in other churches who fall into the same category. Of course there are other ways of laying out the table. For instance, the mythical column could be removed and instead of putting Yes or No into the cell, we could put Yes, No or Mythical, or we could use the cell to record dates between which the person was recognised by the church concerned as a real saint. -- Derek Ross
- Ah. That makes perfect sense. If it's objectively verifiable as you say, then I agree the designation is NPOV. I'll have to see whether the Orthodox consider any saints mythical. I still think any detailed information about when a saint was considered real and when their status changed to mythical, should be reserved for that saint's page. I like the conciseness of the current table format, which will be increasingly valuable as the list grows. I'm going to add your definition to the top of the page, under the guidelines for alphabetizing, so that everyone can apply that criteria when adding entries and so that the column doesn't create any undue confusion to readers. Thanks for your explanation! --Wesley
Could someone add the story of St. Christopher and why he was declared mythical? I went back to the list after reading talk and he isn't there. --rmhermen